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2008-09-19 08:18

Picka
Colorado Springs, CO

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Get Real has asked me to list my specific liberal views. I hesitate to do that because there is not one set of liberal views that fits all. We like to debate and discuss our views and may never reach a consensus. Nevertheless I'll put forth my views on liberals with the expectation that they are open to debate.
Liberals believe in the separation of church and state.
Liberals believe that all religious beliefs (as well as the beliefs of agnostics and athiests) should be respected and not demeaned.
Liberals believe in evolution and not creationism.
For example, we are opposed to the Bush policy that doesn't allow park rangers in the Grand Canyon to talk about the age of the park but allows reigious literature that says the canyon is only 6,000 years old.
Liberals are opposed to the teaching of creationism in science classes.
Liberals are pro-choice on abortion and want to retain Row vs Wade.
Liberals believe in all forms of contraception for birth control and the spread of AIDS and not just abstinence only.
Liberals are for equal rights for all regardless of race, gender or sexual preference.
Liberals believe in equal pay for equal work.
Liberals are for teaching age appropriate sex education in public schools and that includes kindergarten.
Liberals believe that the temporary Bush tax cuts which provided 31% of their benefits to the top 1% should be rolled back to a more equitable tax plan that benefits the middle class more (the Obama plan).
Liberals believe that we should begin an immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq as per the Obama plan.
Liberals are mixed on the war in Afghanistan. I fear that we will get bogged down there as we have in Iraq.
Liberals believe in the Geneva Convention on torture and that it applies to everyone.
Liberals believe that Gitmo should be closed.
Liberals believe we should honor and reward our troops for their sacrifice by education and heathcare benefits.

Liberals are for open and transparent government and not secrecy.
Liberals believe that government should be honest and not lie to the American people. By example, if presidential candidates lie to the voters in their campaign, we can surely expect them to continue to lie to Americans once in office.
Liberals believe that the work of community organizers should be honored and not demeaned.
Liberals support federally funded education programs that emphasize early education.
Liberals support Obama's program that provides higher education grants in exchange for community service.
Liberals support an affordable healthcare plan that cover the 47 million uninsured and doesn't deny coverage for pre-existing conditions. It can be market based as long as the uninsured are covered.
Liberals believe that global warming is man made at least in part.
Liberals support tax subsides to stimulate investment in alternative renewable energy projects.
Liberals support tax subsidies to develop the next generation of biofuels, but oppose the destruction of rain forests to grow soybean and palm oil for biofuels.
Okay I'll stop here. There's more, but I've provided more than enough for debate and expect that a consensus may not be reached on some points. But at least we can openly debate, disagree, and in the end have the freedom to choose without fear of retribution.

2008-09-19 12:09

Get Real!
Charleston, SC

Posts: 27

Good! You FINALLY posted something that we can discuss. Let's take your first issue (religion) and look at it from a conservative point of view. then you can tell me why we have to be so far apart? Religion is a very personal and influential part of the lives of most Americans. America was founded, in part on religious freedom - the escape of religious pressures from the government. thus, the founders decided that Congress would make no law establishing a religion. They never said we should exclude religion - just that it would not be created by the governement or the government favor one over the other. That being said... I would agree that government has no place in pushing creationism. At the same time, I don't think we have to fight hard to exclude it either. Liberals say they are for open and honest discussions, scientific evidence, and respecting of others' beliefs. would it not make since to discuss these all in detail and let the evidence decide the outcome? Government shouldn't be used to push religion, nor should it be used as a tool of the anti-religious to beat down those who believe in something higher than themselves. Would you agree with that?

2008-09-19 13:06

Picka
Colorado Springs, CO

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I don't have any problem with what people do or say in their churches, synagogues, and mosques. I also respect those that in the workplace want to take some private time for prayer, as long as it doesn't interfere with their work or that of their colleagues. I also support the efforts of those church groups that in the time of national emergencies such as Katrina help to clothe and feed victims. In many respects, they were more effective as first responders than FIMA, but I believe most were all reimbursed for the efforts by FIMA. Likewise I applaud the efforts of community organizers that work with church groups to help out communities hit by hard times.
However, I have to draw the line when any religious group wants to have their idealogy taught in public classrooms. Anything they want to teach in private schools is their business as long as us taxpayers don't subsidize it in any way. If we were to allow creationism as practiced by some (not all) Christians to be taught in public classrooms, then would it not be expected to also allow the teaching of aspects of Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, or some radical branch of these religions? I think our Founding Fathers had it right in advocating for the separation of church and state, but many Christians have tried to distort that message.

2008-09-20 08:43

Get Real!
Charleston, SC

Posts: 27

Great Point! The local charities and churches were more effective than the government after major disasters. They are also more effective at providing aid every single day of the year. that is what they do, and they manage their money effectively. I'm sure there are exceptions, but as a whole, private charities are better than the government at tending to people's needs. I'm glad you don't want to interfere with people's religious beliefs. That's wonderful - neither do I. As for teaching creationism in school...hmmmmmm....I think we have to give our children differing perspectives. I have done that with religion, politics, and many other items. In order to know why you believe something, you should be able to contrast it with something else. It is understanding the whole picture that makes your individual piece more clear. Yes, I have talked to my kids about Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, and a host of others like Taoism, Hinduism, Wicca...the list goes on. It is my openness to all of these that has allowed my children to grow up strong in their faith. You seem to believe that Christians are against science. Nothing could be farther from the truth. St. Thomas Aquinas said that there is nothing to fear from science, for all of the laws of science came from God. Science cannot contradict that from which it came. That is the prevalent view among most Christians. I will grant you that there are those out there that take a literal interpretation of the Bible and come up with some pretty far out stuff. But that is not mainstream Christianity and to brand it as such is being less than honest. Anyone who studies religion seriously would have to read about the history of the scriptures and how they came to be. There were politics even in that. (Of course). But the bottom line is that I have no problem leaving religion totally out of the schools and let the parents teach it. That's fine with me. I also would support leaving sexual education to the parents - but that's another story that we can discuss another time if you wish. Religion is a personal thing. The diversity of religion in America is great. It is a strength of this great country. The last point that you made was about "separation of church and state." That phrase is nowhere in the founding father's doctrine. Don't confuse the issue with later interpretations of what was said (and practiced). They never intended for them to be mutually exclusive. Religion was a part of their work and their actions from the start - including official acts of government. What they said was that Congress should make no laws regarding the establishment of Religion. This was a direct response to the Church of England being the State religion in England. In that case, there was little distinction between the church and the state. Congress said that we will not create a religion, and the did not want people's religions to be interfered with. While we can agree that religion should not be taught in school unless it is an academic (elective) exercise, I think that we should respect people's religious views and teach facts. And where there is not a consensus as to what the facts are, then you teach all of the sides so that the students will have a complete picture and a well-versed education.

2008-09-20 10:46

Picka
Colorado Springs, CO

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You make some good points about understanding others religions, and from that standpoint I think Americans would be more respected in the Islamic community, for example, if we should more tolerance for their views. Like Christians, most Muslims are moderate, honest hard working people, but have been stereotyped here in the West by the actions of their extremists elements and a compliant media. If the Bush administration had been more grounded in the Islamic religion and their culture, they might have had second thoughts about getting us involved in war that is not winnable. Anyway, I'll flip flop and agree that teaching of religion in an anthropology class as a means of understanding how to relate to other cultures is essential for our global interaction. Teaching it in a science class as an alternative to evolution? No. Religion and science are not compatible. My issue with Sarah Palin is that she and her Assembly of God church appear to represent some of the extremist views of Christianity. Are her views a result of a rational thought process or a result of indoctrination into the church's doctrine from an early age? I will leave that unanswered, but for many people of faith all over the world, each is 100% certain that their faith is the only faith that will give them eternal salvation. How did they become so absolute certain?

2008-09-20 12:22

Get Real!
Charleston, SC

Posts: 27

Probably the most important aspect of education in general is that it opens the mind to more possibilities than one starts with. It is the varying viewpoints that do that, so the more information that you can present, the better - as long as it is put into context. For instance, you say that creationism shouldn't be taught at all in a science classroom. I think that it should not be a primary part of the curriculum, for as you say, it could be considered indoctrination in a religion. teach evolution. i'm fine with that. But creationism should be touched on as a competing theory so as to give a complete picture. It is the teaching of only one side of an issue that is indoctrination. It is the teaching of the complete picture that produces an educated person. I look at it this way... If the evidence is so incredibly overwhelming that evolution is fact and creationism is a discredited theory, then would not the evidence show that? And if that's the case, why would you be opposed to showing that fact? Would you not rather have students who are educated in the main points of evolution and creation so that they could refute unscientific data? It is unfortunate that most people on the planet are indoctrinated in their parents' religion and are never exposed to a serious discussion of any other. The same can be said of politics. Most children take on the views of their parents with regard to that. They do so because they have been exposed exclusively to those views. I won't go so far as to say it is indoctrination, since that implies an intentional effort, but the limiting of information (because one doesn't believe in it) has essentially the same effect on children. I am a religious person by choice. I think it makes the most sense. If you choose otherwise, I'm fine with that. I'll not impose my views on anyone. I wait until someone asks to discuss my religious views with them. The same is true of politics. I am a conservative by choice. I believe it makes the most sense and is consistent. I can support both of my views with consistent, coherent arguments based on facts. My main point is this: I believe in individual freedom above almost everything else. I see the government as a hindrance to that freedom in most cases. The government does have specific functions that it should be responsible for. For the most part however, government has been seen as the answer to every problem. Government can't solve most problems. It mostly gets in the way. But back to the religious question. You asked how every religion came to think they are right and the others are wrong. There are a number of religions that state that emphatically. I am a Catholic. That is NOT a part of the Catholic belief system. In fact, we believe that even athiests can be just as good as sincere Catholics. I've never heard any priest say that other religions are wrong. One of my favorite sayings - and one that I try to live by is: "Preach the Gospel every day - if needed, use words." I try to live the gospel as besst I can rather than preach it to people. The world would be a much nicer place if most people did that. And should someone see me and want to emulate what I do, I can then explain to them why I live the way I do.

2008-09-21 09:13

Picka
Colorado Springs, CO

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Well if all Christians would live the Gospel instead of preaching the Gospel and not trying to convert everyone, well yes the world would be a better place. Most Christians indeed practice moderation in not trying to convert everyone to their beliefs. My concern, however, is with those that intentionlly mix religion with politics. Sarah Palin's pastor, Pastor Kalnins of her Wasilla Assemby of God Church, has preached outrageous statements to his congregation. such as this about John Kerry in 2004: "I'm not going tell you who to vote for, but if you vote for this particular person, I question your salvation. I'm sorry." After Hurricane Katrina he had this to say: "I hate criticisms towards the President because it's like criticisms towards the pastor -- it's almost like, it's not going to get you anywhere, you know, except for hell. That's what it'll get you." He also preaches about the "end times" and claims to have receieved direct "words of knowledge" from God. And as I wonder about how much influence Pastor Kalnins teachings will have on Palin if she is elected, I'm reminded of Bush saying that God chose him to be President and in defending the Iraq war by stating he consulted with a "higher authorty" than his father. And then there was General Boykin, who led Bush's hunt for Bin Laden and once said "the war on terror was a fight against Satan", and also told a Somali warlord that, "My God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."
I don't want any of this kind of thinking in our government, and I certainly do not want teachings from the likes of Pastor Kilnins to affect the thinking of our President as he/she makes gut wreching decsions about taking our country to war. Sarah Palin has already revealed her thinking in that regard, and frankly it scares the jeebees out of me.

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